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	<title>Comments on: The Drowning Child: an Experiment in Morality</title>
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	<description>how we lived on it</description>
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		<title>By: Purity &#38; Invention: a Claude Sautet Retrospective</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-38529</link>
		<dc:creator>Purity &#38; Invention: a Claude Sautet Retrospective</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-38529</guid>
		<description>[...] The Drowning Child: an Experiment in Morality    Share Tweet Subscribe to comments on this post Email Be the first to comment [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Drowning Child: an Experiment in Morality    Share Tweet Subscribe to comments on this post Email Be the first to comment [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Verbose Stoic</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36645</link>
		<dc:creator>Verbose Stoic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 11:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36645</guid>
		<description>But I think that Singer&#039;s push there is to basically make the point that if you are able to save a drowning child without any major sacrifice you wouldn&#039;t use the argument of &quot;But I saved a drowning child yesterday, so I don&#039;t have to do it today&quot;.  By the same token, if your choice is between buying a CD today or giving that money to Oxfam, it&#039;s not a good argument to say that you didn&#039;t buy a CD and donated to Oxfam yesterday.  If you are obligated to give that money to Oxfam, you are still obligated to give that money to Oxfam.

I agree that Singer needs to outline better what the limit is, and also needs to address a lot of issues over whether this obligation really does entail in those conditions.  However, in this case I think he presumes that the conditions that trigger the obligation are all in play and so that the days comment only applies to whether that changes that obligation, and I think Singer would say that that in and of itself doesn&#039;t change the obligation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But I think that Singer&#8217;s push there is to basically make the point that if you are able to save a drowning child without any major sacrifice you wouldn&#8217;t use the argument of &#8220;But I saved a drowning child yesterday, so I don&#8217;t have to do it today&#8221;.  By the same token, if your choice is between buying a CD today or giving that money to Oxfam, it&#8217;s not a good argument to say that you didn&#8217;t buy a CD and donated to Oxfam yesterday.  If you are obligated to give that money to Oxfam, you are still obligated to give that money to Oxfam.</p>
<p>I agree that Singer needs to outline better what the limit is, and also needs to address a lot of issues over whether this obligation really does entail in those conditions.  However, in this case I think he presumes that the conditions that trigger the obligation are all in play and so that the days comment only applies to whether that changes that obligation, and I think Singer would say that that in and of itself doesn&#8217;t change the obligation.</p>
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		<title>By: A. Jay Adler</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36601</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Jay Adler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 00:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36601</guid>
		<description>A significant number of Americans consider Paul a libertarian, and they have been working assiduously to gain influence over the GOP convention. Of course, I understand why he wouldn&#039;t appeal to you, and you are happy not to be an American citizen. From an Israeli perspective, it must seem the U.S. has been teetering in some dangerous far right directions. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A significant number of Americans consider Paul a libertarian, and they have been working assiduously to gain influence over the GOP convention. Of course, I understand why he wouldn&#8217;t appeal to you, and you are happy not to be an American citizen. From an Israeli perspective, it must seem the U.S. has been teetering in some dangerous far right directions. <img src='http://sadredearth.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: SnoopyTheGoon</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36538</link>
		<dc:creator>SnoopyTheGoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36538</guid>
		<description>Great article that raises a good number of good questions. 

One remark, though: equating Ron Paul with libertarianism and mixing in GOP crowd is overdoing it a bit. While RP may have taken a few slogans from the book, he is hardly a sane libertarian.  And GOP - oh well, thankfully (as far as the above mentioned are concerned) I am not an American citizen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article that raises a good number of good questions. </p>
<p>One remark, though: equating Ron Paul with libertarianism and mixing in GOP crowd is overdoing it a bit. While RP may have taken a few slogans from the book, he is hardly a sane libertarian.  And GOP &#8211; oh well, thankfully (as far as the above mentioned are concerned) I am not an American citizen.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36499</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 00:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36499</guid>
		<description>The analysis and mental gymnastics here are terrific for a layman like me. I enjoyed it (and the repartee). The only thing I have to add is a touch of &#039;philosophical&#039; humor. Putting it succinctly, these chaps taught me more than my Philosophy 101 professor. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vV3QGagck

&quot;... and Marx is claiming it was offside.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The analysis and mental gymnastics here are terrific for a layman like me. I enjoyed it (and the repartee). The only thing I have to add is a touch of &#8216;philosophical&#8217; humor. Putting it succinctly, these chaps taught me more than my Philosophy 101 professor. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vV3QGagck" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92vV3QGagck</a></p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230; and Marx is claiming it was offside.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: A. Jay Adler</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36487</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Jay Adler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 20:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36487</guid>
		<description>Your response explains why I focused - though, perhaps not with sufficient attention - on the words &quot;a few days&quot; and &quot;recently.&quot; 

I am not arguing against the entailed obligation to contribute to such charitable efforts entirely. I am challenging the vagueness of those parameters. Yes, Singer limits the nature of any required sacrifice, but what would constitute that excessive degree of financial sacrifice in charitable donations will obviously vary very widely. On what grounds can one argue, &lt;em&gt;generally&lt;/em&gt;, that the donation must be made within only &quot;a few days,&quot; or that a recent donation - last month? yesterday? - is no excuse from making that next one perhaps only a few days later?

 I then raise the issue of the numbers involved, again not to make an excuse based on a level of futility against the overall numbers, but because those numbers restart the clock on &quot;a few days&quot; and &quot;recently&quot; every day and even every moment. &quot;A few days&quot; and &quot;recently&quot; simply are so indistinct, especially on a rolling, renewable basis, that they do not provide any meaningful boundary of moral obligation. It is sufficient, I think, to say that the all the questions answered affirmatively, one is obligated to make such a charitable contribution - or to perform some morally equivalent act - but the vague time parameters are entirely unsupported.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your response explains why I focused &#8211; though, perhaps not with sufficient attention &#8211; on the words &#8220;a few days&#8221; and &#8220;recently.&#8221; </p>
<p>I am not arguing against the entailed obligation to contribute to such charitable efforts entirely. I am challenging the vagueness of those parameters. Yes, Singer limits the nature of any required sacrifice, but what would constitute that excessive degree of financial sacrifice in charitable donations will obviously vary very widely. On what grounds can one argue, <em>generally</em>, that the donation must be made within only &#8220;a few days,&#8221; or that a recent donation &#8211; last month? yesterday? &#8211; is no excuse from making that next one perhaps only a few days later?</p>
<p> I then raise the issue of the numbers involved, again not to make an excuse based on a level of futility against the overall numbers, but because those numbers restart the clock on &#8220;a few days&#8221; and &#8220;recently&#8221; every day and even every moment. &#8220;A few days&#8221; and &#8220;recently&#8221; simply are so indistinct, especially on a rolling, renewable basis, that they do not provide any meaningful boundary of moral obligation. It is sufficient, I think, to say that the all the questions answered affirmatively, one is obligated to make such a charitable contribution &#8211; or to perform some morally equivalent act &#8211; but the vague time parameters are entirely unsupported.</p>
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		<title>By: Verbose Stoic</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-drowning-child-an-experiment-in-morality/comment-page-1/#comment-36481</link>
		<dc:creator>Verbose Stoic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:38:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=11970#comment-36481</guid>
		<description>Although I&#039;m not the biggest fan of Singer, I think he addresses your main concerns here in two places.  First, in the original question:

&quot;However, although you’ll come to no physical harm if you rescue the child, you will get your clothes wet and muddy, which means you’ll have to go home to change, and likely you’ll be late for work.&quot;

So he limits it to minor changes, and so if you were giving away too much the question would change, so there is a limit to how many resources you have to give up, although he isn&#039;t clear on where that is.  The second is in one of the follow-up questions:

&quot;What if you knew that there is a high incidence of drowning among children, and regardless of your efforts in this instance, many other children were nonetheless bound to drown in similar circumstances? &quot;

This, I think, eliminates your comment about how far you have to go as well.  You answered that there being others who would die anyway would not change your obligation in this case, and yet you use that argument to question your obligation in the donation case.  So the question is:  if you can, you should; you can, so you should.

However, there is an interesting question in the move from specific to abstract, which is that if you know that you can&#039;t save all of them, who do you save?  In the initial case, it was one child specifically, and it is implied that you couldn&#039;t save all those myriad others.  Here, you again can&#039;t save the myriad others ... but then you have to choose who you should help.  How does or can one do that?

However, I do think that the questions don&#039;t unreasonably establish that you certainly seem to think it reasonable to sacrifice small costs when someone&#039;s life is on the line, and then violate that at the end.  The only question remaining seems to be how many you should try to save.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I&#8217;m not the biggest fan of Singer, I think he addresses your main concerns here in two places.  First, in the original question:</p>
<p>&#8220;However, although you’ll come to no physical harm if you rescue the child, you will get your clothes wet and muddy, which means you’ll have to go home to change, and likely you’ll be late for work.&#8221;</p>
<p>So he limits it to minor changes, and so if you were giving away too much the question would change, so there is a limit to how many resources you have to give up, although he isn&#8217;t clear on where that is.  The second is in one of the follow-up questions:</p>
<p>&#8220;What if you knew that there is a high incidence of drowning among children, and regardless of your efforts in this instance, many other children were nonetheless bound to drown in similar circumstances? &#8221;</p>
<p>This, I think, eliminates your comment about how far you have to go as well.  You answered that there being others who would die anyway would not change your obligation in this case, and yet you use that argument to question your obligation in the donation case.  So the question is:  if you can, you should; you can, so you should.</p>
<p>However, there is an interesting question in the move from specific to abstract, which is that if you know that you can&#8217;t save all of them, who do you save?  In the initial case, it was one child specifically, and it is implied that you couldn&#8217;t save all those myriad others.  Here, you again can&#8217;t save the myriad others &#8230; but then you have to choose who you should help.  How does or can one do that?</p>
<p>However, I do think that the questions don&#8217;t unreasonably establish that you certainly seem to think it reasonable to sacrifice small costs when someone&#8217;s life is on the line, and then violate that at the end.  The only question remaining seems to be how many you should try to save.</p>
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