<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		xmlns:itunes="http://www.itunes.com/dtds/podcast-1.0.dtd"
	xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
	>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Refusal II – A Response and Elaboration</title>
	<atom:link href="http://sadredearth.com/the-refusal-ii-a-response-and-elaboration/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-refusal-ii-a-response-and-elaboration/</link>
	<description>how we lived on it</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 21 May 2012 12:04:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: copithorne</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-refusal-ii-a-response-and-elaboration/comment-page-1/#comment-692</link>
		<dc:creator>copithorne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:26:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=3179#comment-692</guid>
		<description>In the big picture, I&#039;m sure we are in substantial agreeement.

I identify as a Zionist who is still old fashioned enough to believe that Israel was promised to the Jews by God.

I share your perception that the main obstacle to peace is that Israel does not have a peace partner who can negotiate in good faith.

But the interests of Israel and the international community are to lay the groundwork for developing a peace partner.  Since the goal is peace, Israeli policy must be evaluated in that context.

Currently Gaza is administered by the Israelis as a cross between a POW camp and Escape From New York urban dystopia. But it is a POW camp in which women are having an average of five children. I don&#039;t see how this leads to a good outcome. I think it is likely to be digging the hole deeper.  

The way forward of current Israeli policy and in your argument seems to be that essentially you will facilitate the Palestinian society of hitting rock bottom and that will help them let go of their addiction to animus of the Israelis. I am skeptical that that will work. I think the assumptions involved mask the punitive anger of the Israeli people, which, while understandable, is not constructive. I think the suffering of Gaza is more likely  to lead to extremism than it is likely to provide a constructive lesson.

I acknowledge that the suffering of Gaza is mainly the result of bad decisions by Palestinian leaders. But I believe that in the obvious frustration and anger, Israeli policy has become punitive and sadistic. It is understandable, but it is not helpful.

The list of rules is arbitrary in the way of any prison.  The Israelis bomb the sewage treatment plants and won&#039;t allow the concrete to repair them.  The list of imports into Gaza that Israel allows is arbitrary. The basic thesis of the Goldstone Report -- that there were many instances of Operation Cast Lead in which Israeli violence exceeded military necessity seems accurate to me. Certainly compared to the Palestinians and even compared to America, Israel&#039;s behavior is better. But in absolute terms, I would think more restraint would better match the long term interests of Israel.

If you get a chance to read the Lawrence Wright article, I wonder if you would have the same reaction to it that you have to Goldstone. 

In regards to your assessment of Israeli peace proposals, I think it is a decidedly minority view in Israel that Jerusalem should be administered under an international regime. The current Israeli government would not countenance such a proposal. And it has been long time American policy to oppose settlements in the Occupied Territories as a complication to peace. These American objections have generally been ignored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the big picture, I&#8217;m sure we are in substantial agreeement.</p>
<p>I identify as a Zionist who is still old fashioned enough to believe that Israel was promised to the Jews by God.</p>
<p>I share your perception that the main obstacle to peace is that Israel does not have a peace partner who can negotiate in good faith.</p>
<p>But the interests of Israel and the international community are to lay the groundwork for developing a peace partner.  Since the goal is peace, Israeli policy must be evaluated in that context.</p>
<p>Currently Gaza is administered by the Israelis as a cross between a POW camp and Escape From New York urban dystopia. But it is a POW camp in which women are having an average of five children. I don&#8217;t see how this leads to a good outcome. I think it is likely to be digging the hole deeper.  </p>
<p>The way forward of current Israeli policy and in your argument seems to be that essentially you will facilitate the Palestinian society of hitting rock bottom and that will help them let go of their addiction to animus of the Israelis. I am skeptical that that will work. I think the assumptions involved mask the punitive anger of the Israeli people, which, while understandable, is not constructive. I think the suffering of Gaza is more likely  to lead to extremism than it is likely to provide a constructive lesson.</p>
<p>I acknowledge that the suffering of Gaza is mainly the result of bad decisions by Palestinian leaders. But I believe that in the obvious frustration and anger, Israeli policy has become punitive and sadistic. It is understandable, but it is not helpful.</p>
<p>The list of rules is arbitrary in the way of any prison.  The Israelis bomb the sewage treatment plants and won&#8217;t allow the concrete to repair them.  The list of imports into Gaza that Israel allows is arbitrary. The basic thesis of the Goldstone Report &#8212; that there were many instances of Operation Cast Lead in which Israeli violence exceeded military necessity seems accurate to me. Certainly compared to the Palestinians and even compared to America, Israel&#8217;s behavior is better. But in absolute terms, I would think more restraint would better match the long term interests of Israel.</p>
<p>If you get a chance to read the Lawrence Wright article, I wonder if you would have the same reaction to it that you have to Goldstone. </p>
<p>In regards to your assessment of Israeli peace proposals, I think it is a decidedly minority view in Israel that Jerusalem should be administered under an international regime. The current Israeli government would not countenance such a proposal. And it has been long time American policy to oppose settlements in the Occupied Territories as a complication to peace. These American objections have generally been ignored.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

