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	<title>Comments on: The Unsound Judgment of Andrew Sullivan</title>
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	<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-unsound-judgment-of-andrew-sullivan/</link>
	<description>how we lived on it</description>
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		<title>By: A. Jay Adler</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-unsound-judgment-of-andrew-sullivan/comment-page-1/#comment-1582</link>
		<dc:creator>A. Jay Adler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 03:16:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=4182#comment-1582</guid>
		<description>Copithorne, I know that in large measure we agree on this subject. You&#039;re right, of course, that Rabin&#039;s assassination demonstrated the presence of an ugly segment of Israeli society. However, all nations have them, the U.S. itself in spades. But we saw in the Gaza withdrawal how much power that sector ultimately has in Israel. And what followed from the Rabin assassination? A lost commitment to peace? No, two dramatic peace proposals from Ehud Barak, who staked his political career on a profound and genuine effort at final peace. Again, as I wrote, there were no Palestinian counters but the second Intifada. And again, after nearly a decade of terror from all sides, who tables a peace proposal? The Israeli PM. The ultimate Palestinian Authority response? Neglecting to call back. Other than an endless PR campaign of suffering and victimization, where is even a meager - which is hardly to conceive a comparable - Palestinian record of proposals and initiatives? You write, &quot; It seems as though it is the contemporary Israeli political system that has resigned itself to endless war.&quot; First, I wonder what it is in the Palestinian record that leads you not to make that observation about the Palestinian frame of mind. Next, I wonder why it isn&#039;t reasonable to perceive that the current Israeli state of mind is based in just that perception of the Palestinians. Finally, this whole discussion emanates from a truly peculiar and broad perception that the Palestinians are like the weather. One can&#039;t curse the snow, only the mayor who can never get it plowed well enough. Why is this discussion so constantly about what Israel, as actor or reactor, does or does not do - especially given its actual record in pursuit of peace - and very close to never about what the Palestinians do, or, actually, what they fail to do?

It would be disingenuous or blind of me to reject any influence of my personal identifications on this subject. However, I think my arguments themselves can be engaged on their own merits. Historically, my political sympathies in Israel have been with Labor, and decidedly anti-Likud. There are reasons, though, that the formation of Kadima was possible, and that such a historic Labor figure as Shimon Peres felt comfortable in it. There are reasons why Ehud Barak could align with Ehud Olmert on Gaza in 2008. One prejudicial explanation, offered by Andrew Sullivan, in response to Wieseltier, is some &quot;moral slide&quot; by Israel. (Glad all of the other nations of the world are upholding their moral character sufficiently to warrant no special attention and mention in his list of policy passions - one of, in fact, Wieseltier&#039;s points.) Another explanation is to cease conceiving Palestinian behavior as meteorology. It isn&#039;t a question of being critical of Israel: it&#039;s a matter of how one is critical: the nature of the rhetoric and emphasis, the nature of the company and the cited authorities, the forces and movements aligned with by virtue of those first two considerations. 

As to Ron Paul, just when I thought I had a sense of where you are politically, I see I&#039;m back to the political calculator. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Copithorne, I know that in large measure we agree on this subject. You&#8217;re right, of course, that Rabin&#8217;s assassination demonstrated the presence of an ugly segment of Israeli society. However, all nations have them, the U.S. itself in spades. But we saw in the Gaza withdrawal how much power that sector ultimately has in Israel. And what followed from the Rabin assassination? A lost commitment to peace? No, two dramatic peace proposals from Ehud Barak, who staked his political career on a profound and genuine effort at final peace. Again, as I wrote, there were no Palestinian counters but the second Intifada. And again, after nearly a decade of terror from all sides, who tables a peace proposal? The Israeli PM. The ultimate Palestinian Authority response? Neglecting to call back. Other than an endless PR campaign of suffering and victimization, where is even a meager &#8211; which is hardly to conceive a comparable &#8211; Palestinian record of proposals and initiatives? You write, &#8221; It seems as though it is the contemporary Israeli political system that has resigned itself to endless war.&#8221; First, I wonder what it is in the Palestinian record that leads you not to make that observation about the Palestinian frame of mind. Next, I wonder why it isn&#8217;t reasonable to perceive that the current Israeli state of mind is based in just that perception of the Palestinians. Finally, this whole discussion emanates from a truly peculiar and broad perception that the Palestinians are like the weather. One can&#8217;t curse the snow, only the mayor who can never get it plowed well enough. Why is this discussion so constantly about what Israel, as actor or reactor, does or does not do &#8211; especially given its actual record in pursuit of peace &#8211; and very close to never about what the Palestinians do, or, actually, what they fail to do?</p>
<p>It would be disingenuous or blind of me to reject any influence of my personal identifications on this subject. However, I think my arguments themselves can be engaged on their own merits. Historically, my political sympathies in Israel have been with Labor, and decidedly anti-Likud. There are reasons, though, that the formation of Kadima was possible, and that such a historic Labor figure as Shimon Peres felt comfortable in it. There are reasons why Ehud Barak could align with Ehud Olmert on Gaza in 2008. One prejudicial explanation, offered by Andrew Sullivan, in response to Wieseltier, is some &#8220;moral slide&#8221; by Israel. (Glad all of the other nations of the world are upholding their moral character sufficiently to warrant no special attention and mention in his list of policy passions &#8211; one of, in fact, Wieseltier&#8217;s points.) Another explanation is to cease conceiving Palestinian behavior as meteorology. It isn&#8217;t a question of being critical of Israel: it&#8217;s a matter of how one is critical: the nature of the rhetoric and emphasis, the nature of the company and the cited authorities, the forces and movements aligned with by virtue of those first two considerations. </p>
<p>As to Ron Paul, just when I thought I had a sense of where you are politically, I see I&#8217;m back to the political calculator. <img src='http://sadredearth.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sid</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-unsound-judgment-of-andrew-sullivan/comment-page-1/#comment-1562</link>
		<dc:creator>Sid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 02:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=4182#comment-1562</guid>
		<description>I agree mostly with Andrew Sullivan. Jews should be aware that more and more Americans are getting fed-up with their uncontested influence over America&#039;s Middle East  policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree mostly with Andrew Sullivan. Jews should be aware that more and more Americans are getting fed-up with their uncontested influence over America&#8217;s Middle East  policy.</p>
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		<title>By: copithorne</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-unsound-judgment-of-andrew-sullivan/comment-page-1/#comment-1549</link>
		<dc:creator>copithorne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 07:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=4182#comment-1549</guid>
		<description>You say that &quot;other people expect Israel to live for decades in a perpetual state of low level conflict that they themselves would never tolerate.&quot;

I have a strong preference for Israel and the whole region to live in peace. Is it not possible to believe that there are policies that Israel could pursue that would lead to a better prospect of that outcome? Currently, Israel is not on any path to peace. 

It seems as though it is the contemporary Israeli political system that has resigned itself to endless war. The frustration and discouragement is understandable and yet it would be more productive to find a way to keep hope alive that peace is possible.

To me, your reasoning here seems different from the reasoning I see you apply to other questions. It seems as though you are identified with the political team of Israel and you the political prospects for that team as precarious. So, any criticism of Israeli policies is perceived as betrayal of the political team.

Even though I identify as a Zionist, I don&#039;t share that perspective. Perhaps because I perceive Israel&#039;s political status as secure. 

A pair of minor reactions: you say the 90s became the 00s not because of what Israel did. I reacted that this idea overlooked the assasination of Yitzhak Rabin. From the shadow of that event, we might infer that there are political forces within the Israeli polity that are violent.

Also, I perceive Ron Paul to have a coherent philosophy of public policy. I don&#039;t agree with it. But I find him to be less of a cracked pot than any given Republican leader who I perceive to be rehearsing a set of incoherent slogans to mask an agenda that has little to do with public policy. 





On a minor note, I perceive Ron Paul to have an actual coherent conservative political philosophy. I don&#039;t agree with it. But he actually seems capable of thinking about pubic policy. He seems altogether</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say that &#8220;other people expect Israel to live for decades in a perpetual state of low level conflict that they themselves would never tolerate.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have a strong preference for Israel and the whole region to live in peace. Is it not possible to believe that there are policies that Israel could pursue that would lead to a better prospect of that outcome? Currently, Israel is not on any path to peace. </p>
<p>It seems as though it is the contemporary Israeli political system that has resigned itself to endless war. The frustration and discouragement is understandable and yet it would be more productive to find a way to keep hope alive that peace is possible.</p>
<p>To me, your reasoning here seems different from the reasoning I see you apply to other questions. It seems as though you are identified with the political team of Israel and you the political prospects for that team as precarious. So, any criticism of Israeli policies is perceived as betrayal of the political team.</p>
<p>Even though I identify as a Zionist, I don&#8217;t share that perspective. Perhaps because I perceive Israel&#8217;s political status as secure. </p>
<p>A pair of minor reactions: you say the 90s became the 00s not because of what Israel did. I reacted that this idea overlooked the assasination of Yitzhak Rabin. From the shadow of that event, we might infer that there are political forces within the Israeli polity that are violent.</p>
<p>Also, I perceive Ron Paul to have a coherent philosophy of public policy. I don&#8217;t agree with it. But I find him to be less of a cracked pot than any given Republican leader who I perceive to be rehearsing a set of incoherent slogans to mask an agenda that has little to do with public policy. </p>
<p>On a minor note, I perceive Ron Paul to have an actual coherent conservative political philosophy. I don&#8217;t agree with it. But he actually seems capable of thinking about pubic policy. He seems altogether</p>
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		<title>By: Judeosphere</title>
		<link>http://sadredearth.com/the-unsound-judgment-of-andrew-sullivan/comment-page-1/#comment-1542</link>
		<dc:creator>Judeosphere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sadredearth.com/?p=4182#comment-1542</guid>
		<description>You raise an excellent question. But I wouldn&#039;t identify Sullivan as a bellwether for precisely the reason you identify: &quot;he swings frequently, he swings with emotion from one impassioned response to another&quot;

The fact is, ever since the United States became engaged in the Middle East after World War II, Israel has time and again been singled out as a threat to U.S. interests.

Here are just a few examples over the last 20 years of when Israel was declared to be a “strategic liability”:

http://www.thejudeosphere.com/?p=498</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You raise an excellent question. But I wouldn&#8217;t identify Sullivan as a bellwether for precisely the reason you identify: &#8220;he swings frequently, he swings with emotion from one impassioned response to another&#8221;</p>
<p>The fact is, ever since the United States became engaged in the Middle East after World War II, Israel has time and again been singled out as a threat to U.S. interests.</p>
<p>Here are just a few examples over the last 20 years of when Israel was declared to be a “strategic liability”:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thejudeosphere.com/?p=498" rel="nofollow">http://www.thejudeosphere.com/?p=498</a></p>
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